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View Full Version : Stats - do you keep them? If so, what details?



17-11-2008, 05:07 PM
I've kept stats in various matches for various reasons. In the main it is for my own consumption or to provide some further feedback to a specific argument.

Playing 3rd last weekend, I kept score of how many effective bowls I played (within a mat length of the kitty, or where the skip wanted it), the score on change over and the score on each end.

I now think I should also have kept either the score or whether we were holding when I got to the mat to provide me with some further measurements.

Do you keep some stats for yourself OR because your match committee tells you to? What things do you keep count of? What do you measure? How are these used?

David South
17-11-2008, 05:20 PM
My experience is that collecting data to allow you to rate each player is a much better way to identify outstanding performers (for promotion) and people who are not pulling their weight (to be moved or demoted) than simply asking players after the game who played well and who didn't. When you collect both sorts of information, you often find they don't relate well at all. And - disturbingly - a lot of people seem to want to put more weight on opinion than on data.

The problem is collecting the data without distracting people, to the detriment of their game. I ask the second to record the score on the cross-over on the card beside the number. That gives you information about relative performance of skippers, and is not too hard to do. Any more though I believe will put the people keeping the record off their game.

Damo
17-11-2008, 05:29 PM
I keep the stats for our rink each Saturday pretty much the same way as Michael has stated. Our guys know that it is not a critisicsm but a way of trying to improve ones game. We do a quick debrief after the game over a beer and thats about it. The club has it's own rating slips which have to be submitted after the game to the bowls office for the selectors to look at.

Swifty
17-11-2008, 05:35 PM
I remember one day when I was Club Captain. My away game was cancelled due to the weather, but our club decided to play on. Our top team was playing at home, I had nothing to do, so I went and watched. About 5 ends into the game, one rink was being slaughtered. I decided to keep some stats (just effective bowls) to see if I could give the selectors some feedback on whether someone wasn't pulling his weight.

It only took a couple of ends before the players realised what was going on, even though I was trying my best to be discrete.

Well, one bloke went absolutely paranoid! He'd put his bowl down and immediately jump up and turn around to me and say, "What did you think of that one? Did you give that a tick?" I had to give up after about 10 ends before this bloke had a heart attack. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Anyway, whether it was the pressure of me taking stats, or they just had a slow start, they managed to dig themselves out of the hole and came back to win their rink. No-one got dropped.

I'm still not sure whether keeping stats is a good or bad idea.

swoosha
17-11-2008, 06:08 PM
Not sure about the whole stat thing.Wouldnt you know where you need to improve just by playing the game?If you dont know what your strengths and weaknesses are your concerntration and thought process isnt up to the level it needs to be.Practice your weakness and make it your strength.

The Third Man
17-11-2008, 06:15 PM
Since I started pennant bowls, I've kept a small spiral bound notebook in my bag in which I make a pencil note each week. It's a bit of a ritual but I record the sequential game number, the date, the division, the opposition, where we played, the rink score, the overall score, who my skipper was and the position I played.
I also note when rain or heat has intervened and any particular personal milestones such as finals, first game as skipper or winning club glasses, games that I have missed and why etc.
It sounds a lot but it really takes only 20 seconds as I put my bowls away.
At the end of the season I transfer all that data to a spreadsheet on my computer.
I've been doing this 10 years now (only for pennant games) and it is great to look back on. It's also fun as you can sort the data to find out in which position you've had the most wins (or losses) who has been your best (or worst) skipper/green etc etc.
I only started doing this because I was starting a new sport and wanted a record.
Our club doesn't keep official records of games played by individuals and some of the blokes have seen what I have been doing and have expressed the fact that they wished they had started it themselves as they have only estimates of their careers which are in the many hundreds of games more than mine.
This takes up one line (across two pages) of a small notebook a week.
I would recommend to any bowler taking up the sport to do this. You dont realise the value of the information until a few years have passed.

swoosha
17-11-2008, 06:21 PM
Multiplied by 3.14 :grin:

17-11-2008, 06:41 PM
Not sure about the whole stat thing.Wouldnt you know where you need to improve just by playing the game?If you dont know what your strengths and weaknesses are your concerntration and thought process isnt up to the level it needs to be.Practice your weakness and make it your strength.
Most people know how they are travelling, but without accurate data, how does the average bloke know what to do about it? How easy is it to disregard the five poor ends you had (from 21-25) on Saturday?

Most people need that feedback/data in front of them to confront them as to how well (or otherwise) they are doing. It's too easy to reflect on the awesome drive or absolute draw bowl you played. But you really need to decrease the number of poor bowls. If you don't know how many poor bowls you play, how do you know that you're playing less of them?

Scottie
18-11-2008, 02:07 AM
... Most people know how they are travelling, but without accurate data, how does the average bloke know what to do about it? How easy is it to disregard the five poor ends you had (from 21-25) on Saturday?...
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I play with a bloke who sums this up perfectly.

When enquiring how someone has played that day, he says: "How did you bowl today - you liar!!"

Where I am playing, the three Selectors call in the Skips for a short de-briefing after the game on Saturday night. My Third has played 'very' ordinary bowls for the last couple of games. My problem is that he is convinced that he is playing very well, but he is also one of the three Selectors. It is a bit touchy to say to the Selectors that my Third is not playing up to scratch after he has just said how well he has played!

backhand_smack
18-11-2008, 09:12 AM
Come on "Torrita" the topic is Statistics and you are no where to be found.

PB
18-11-2008, 10:21 AM
Apparently one of the most ardent keeper of stats at RU ripped up his card after 8 ends on Saturday because he was playing so poorly and believed it was causing him a distraction.

JB
18-11-2008, 10:23 AM
Apparently one of the most ardent keeper of stats at RU ripped up his card after 8 ends on Saturday because he was playing so poorly and believed it was causing him a distraction.
not Stats? NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :smile: :smile: :smile:

Dealy
18-11-2008, 04:41 PM
I play baseball as well as bowls and every scrap of info is recorded. You can look in the score book and re-create an entire game from the stats recorded. Who hit, where it went, who fielded, where it was thrown, errors made, everything. You can't hide a bad performance, you just need a quick glance at the color coded score book to see who played well and who made errors. Obviously the stats can be harsh on some plays and kind on others but overall it balances out pretty well.

I think it's a good thing because it allows you to look back at how you've been traveling and work on specific areas that need to be improved. i.e. You might be batting really well but need to work on your fly balls. It's also a big help to selectors, they might need someone to come in and pinch hit in a higher team, sure your fielding might be ordinary but you're on fire with the bat. The selectors can see this and select with all the information available.

Sure stats aren't the only measure that can be used, but bowl by bowl stats don't lie. Was the bowl effective y/n, add the total at the end of the game, relate it to position and you've got a fair idea of how effective the bowler was. It takes out emotion and "gut feeling" of how well people bowl and puts the onus on performance not perception.

Stats don't lie, people do. The only people who don't like stats are those who are worried that their lack of performance might be exposed.

PB
19-11-2008, 12:50 PM
Apparently one of the most ardent keeper of stats at RU ripped up his card after 8 ends on Saturday because he was playing so poorly and believed it was causing him a distraction.
not Stats? NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :smile: :smile: :smile:

Not stats but someone else who a total bowls addict

bill morton
02-01-2009, 03:27 PM
I have thought about this topic for over ten years. You can find many notes on the topic on my web site www.mortonmaterial.com (http://www.mortonmaterial.com). I shall comment on on a few of the postings - in case anyone interested!
RE Michaelw - You need to make up your mind about whether to score within a mat length (say two feet) OR distance from a Designated Finishing Point (DFP). You also need to define an effective bowl. Possibly you can use - one that achieves the objective of the shot WITHOUT LUCK. In addition you need to decide whether to "score" on the basis of RESULT or QUALITY. Notes on this topic exist in the web site. If the Skipper asks you for a position bowl twelve feet behind the head and your bowl finsihes as a resting toucher you would score nil under my scoring system (also explained in the site). Incidentally if you only score within two feet fo the DFP and outside two feet you will find that many of your bowls (about 75%) finish outside two feet - if you play at Division level in Melbourne. Thus if you score in order to help the Selectors you will not give them much useful information - even though the two-feet will prove somewhat useful.
Most Selectors in melbourne use an opinion-based scoring approach (see Whole Game Rating (WGR) pages in the web site. It has the major weakness that it does not allow a legitimate comparison of Players in different Teams and different Sides in Pennant.
Incidentally see the notes on the USELESSNESS of changeover scores. They should PROVE the uselessness. Thus you can see why I support the comments by David South. Nowadays I do not play pennant and score one rink every Saturday. One of my colleagues plays and scores everyone in his team including himself. I did this for may years when I played Pennant. When I just observe, I score both Teams. I have many statistics on my site. Some of our Players just score themselves. Some Players believes it helps them to concentrate. Others stop scoring themselves if they start playing badly. Most Players who play badly like to have the excuse that someone has scored them!!
Only one person has ever asked me to stop scoring them including the opposition Visitors. A few (a very few) come and ask about my recording. I always offer them the chance to receive a copy. Even fewer say yes. I send them the details and ask for feedback and how they use the information but they never reply. Re Swifty - I hope the previous helps you. See the Web site and the pages called Individual Bowls Scoring (IBS). Just ignore the bloke with the incipient heart attack and tell him you will not score him. This fact MAY make him play better! However, if he has to think about you scoring him, what does that say for his ability to concentrate on the right things when he listens to his skipper's instruction (usually poor and vague) and plays his bowl.
Re Platypus. I would love to see your scoring. You can make use of this information sooner than after several games if you compare it with the standards that I have from my scoring over ten years. It tells him (e.g.) whether he has played above or below the average for a given game.
I think I better stop before I bore everyone to death. Bill Morton

Davo
02-01-2009, 07:01 PM
Welcome aboard Bill & thanks for your input. Very interesting site you've got there cobber. :cool: