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mrmagoo
29-04-2009, 01:21 PM
Hi guys. This one is a bit difficult. I am after any informed opinions as to the best artificial surface for an outdoor green that gets pretty warm weather during summer and for the last ten years not a lot of rain. We are currently looking to replace wagga couch with a different surface but want to get it right first time. Thanks and any thought would be helpfull. We are a small club of 90 odd members, very odd in some cases, and we don't see any future in grass for us

PB
29-04-2009, 02:27 PM
What are the finances like Magoo? committing to a synthetic surface is a large expense and unless you can guarantee the savings it could hurt you. I recommend a full costing over 10 years before you go to the next step, we did it at RU before staying grass as the numbers just don't add up.

Plus grass is a hell of a cooler in summer to play on

Chalks1971
29-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Weve had a carpet green in since Feb 07, and have had nothing but trouble. Ours was through a co called Bowls Construction Australia, based in Armidale NSW. Theyve been back twice to fix it, first time to redo the base, and the second time the hooks (nails) holding the green down let go. Theyre du back again because the base isnt right, & theyve now admitted they didnt use enough bonding agent. The mats two years old and the bowls are picking up fine dust of green pile.
I hope to be reporting positively onced the co has redone the green.

Aside from the above the positive is that you can bowl all year round. The disadvantages are, beside the above, that they are 20 degrees hotter than the grass and the get dirty easy (bird shit & dust). The dust can be vacuumed, but the birshit needs to be shampooed out.

This is a carpet green & needs no water, except for cleaning. They certainly have a part to play in the game, but in my opinion, only as a last resort.

Glory glory
29-04-2009, 05:15 PM
go with the new needle punch it runs a nice 12 seconds. or try one of the woven carpets that tell ya they last 10 years then ya can turn um over, yet to hear of one lasting longer than 7 years

very simular costs over a ten year period. i understand water being a big issue, but stick with ya wagga couch, besides not many of them left now

mrmagoo
30-04-2009, 02:31 PM
We have around 90K plus another 60 to 80K available in grants and such but we have 2 greens at 37x40 but the centre can be ripped out to give us about 37x85. Our greens now are knackered and we either have to bite the bullet now as we have suffered a bit in feedback after having some issues during the second half of the year. I am convinced that we need something people will want to come to our club for and it will start with the greens. The carpet seems the go but I have just read the VGA report done a few years ago for the government and the costing in near terms is carpet well ahead to start but over a 25 year period tif comes out around 70K better off and at the same time we have good weather up here near the border and would expect any carpet would have to run between 15 and 16 seconds and also able to support night bowls as we have lights. Then of course you have the increasing greenkeeping cost for labour which I guess isn't going to get any cheaper and to support 2 new tif greens we need somewhat more on the spot greenkeeping than has been used particularly in the last 12 months so that does have a huge bearing on the direction we need to go.

backhand_smack
01-05-2009, 03:55 PM
The club where i work about 4 - 5 years ago decided to put an artificial green in. We got numerous quotes and ideas from various companies and decided that Tigerturf woven carpet was the best option for our club. Sure you do pay a little bit extra but in my opinion that has proven well worth it. We only had one glitch after about 12 months the underfelt freyed on one side. This was not affecting the running of the bowl it was just noticable when there was a dew on the surface. We informed them and they were great in coming to check it out. It proved to be a manufacture fault and it was replaced within a few weeks. We have had no other issue with it and i do believe it is the best artificial surface i have played on. I would highly recommend any club to consider this surface as the way to go if they were going for that option.

Hope this helps.

Glory glory
01-05-2009, 05:12 PM
be interesting if ya come back and can say the same in 7 or plus years backhand smack

painkill
01-05-2009, 05:41 PM
What would be the percentage of Syn greens installed over carpet greens in the last 3 years.? Would anyone know? What do most people prefer playing on? From the way synthetics have improved in the last 15 years its increadible. In another 15 years they will almost perfect.

papabear
01-05-2009, 06:29 PM
The club where i work about 4 - 5 years ago decided to put an artificial green in. We got numerous quotes and ideas from various companies and decided that Tigerturf woven carpet was the best option for our club. Sure you do pay a little bit extra but in my opinion that has proven well worth it. We only had one glitch after about 12 months the underfelt freyed on one side. This was not affecting the running of the bowl it was just noticable when there was a dew on the surface. We informed them and they were great in coming to check it out. It proved to be a manufacture fault and it was replaced within a few weeks. We have had no other issue with it and i do believe it is the best artificial surface i have played on. I would highly recommend any club to consider this surface as the way to go if they were going for that option.

Hope this helps.
Mr Magoo, our Club went with Tiger Turf and their woven carpet. We put two greens in and I would say that once it is in and settled it is a terrific surface to play on.
Sure, we had teething problems too but they have been fixed and play very well with minimal maintance. We can play anytme we like, no chemicals and only a vacumn cleaner to buy and no paid greens director.
Ours has been in 4 years (I think) and is still in good condition apart from a couple of small burn holes from bloody smokers.
I can't see that costs could come any near what it costs to maintain a couple of grass greens and sure carpet will deteriate but so does a grass green needing costly replacements eventually.
I wouldn't recommend the latest needle punch carpet as it is too slow and with far too much variation in speed with hot and cold weather.
Mr M if you want to come and try ours just PM me and I will arrange.

B2 ROCKET
01-05-2009, 08:16 PM
What would be the percentage of Syn greens installed over carpet greens in the last 3 years.? Would anyone know? What do most people prefer playing on? From the way synthetics have improved in the last 15 years its increadible. In another 15 years they will almost perfect.

YOUR DREAMING :cool:

Glory glory
01-05-2009, 08:43 PM
What would be the percentage of Syn greens installed over carpet greens in the last 3 years.? Would anyone know? What do most people prefer playing on? From the way synthetics have improved in the last 15 years its increadible. In another 15 years they will almost perfect.

they'll be that perfect they'll think its grass

Glory glory
01-05-2009, 08:47 PM
The club where i work about 4 - 5 years ago decided to put an artificial green in. We got numerous quotes and ideas from various companies and decided that Tigerturf woven carpet was the best option for our club. Sure you do pay a little bit extra but in my opinion that has proven well worth it. We only had one glitch after about 12 months the underfelt freyed on one side. This was not affecting the running of the bowl it was just noticable when there was a dew on the surface. We informed them and they were great in coming to check it out. It proved to be a manufacture fault and it was replaced within a few weeks. We have had no other issue with it and i do believe it is the best artificial surface i have played on. I would highly recommend any club to consider this surface as the way to go if they were going for that option.

Hope this helps.
Backhand, our Club went with Tiger Turf and their woven carpet. We put two greens in and I would say that once it is in and settled it is a terrific surface to play on.
Sure, we had teething problems too but they have been fixed and play very well with minimal maintance. We can play anytme we like, no chemicals and only a vacumn cleaner to buy and no paid greens director.
Ours has been in 4 years (I think) and is still in good condition apart from a couple of small burn holes from bloody smokers.
I can't see that costs could come any near what it costs to maintain a couple of grass greens and sure carpet will deteriate but so does a grass green needing costly replacements eventually.
I wouldn't recommend the latest needle punch carpet as it is too slow and with far too much variation in speed with hot and cold weather.
Painkill if you want to come and try ours just PM me and I will arrange.

no chemicqals YET

only a couple small burn holes how do you fix that. won't be long if the smokers have their way

PB
02-05-2009, 12:34 PM
What would be the percentage of Syn greens installed over carpet greens in the last 3 years.? Would anyone know? What do most people prefer playing on? From the way synthetics have improved in the last 15 years its increadible. In another 15 years they will almost perfect.
I think I heard comments like that 10 years ago saying that'd be like grass in 10 years.

mrmagoo
02-05-2009, 01:28 PM
Guys. I would like to thankyou for some of this input. I yesterday talked to the Clare Bowling Club in SA who were both forthright and in much the same position as our club. They have been estatic with the Tiger carpet. They have had it laid now for a season and I spoke to the old greeny there and he wasn't convinced about it to start but, he tells me that he is just taken aback by how it has gone and even he would recommend it for any club in the same position. They actually sent a fact finding group to clubs in Victoria to see the different types of greens and check out the costings and surfaces, of which he was a part. That was there decision and I am informed they haven't looked back. They are currently trying to get a winter comp going there with an amazing response from other clubs who have been looking at their own greens due to the water situations over there.

Scottie
03-05-2009, 05:27 PM
There a quite a few synthetic greens in WA now, with the woven carpet (TigerTurf) type appearing to the the favoured type now.

I personally don't mind it as a playing surface, and favour it over the sand-filled synthetic.

But - it is not without its disadvantages.

. One of its major disadvantages is how hot it can get. In Perth, where most of the Pennant season is conducted in afternoon temperatures of 35 - 40 + degrees centigrade, carpet becomes extraordinarily hot - much more so than even the sand-filled synthetic (which is watered pre-game to settle the sand). Obviously grass is a much cooler surface to play on. (We don't have a set temperature canellation By-law as in Vic.)

. And for blokes who tend to drag their feet a bit. Be VERY careful about touching the metal scoreboards or posts - the static electricity can be shocking!

. Beware of dumpers! I understand that Committees, and Members who pay the same subscriptions as everyone else, are worried about the (legal) implications of banning certain bowlers from playing on their synthetic green. But 'dumpers' certainly leave a lasting impression on the green and especially the base material which can then only be repaired by lifting up the carpet and underfelt and re-levelling the base - at a hell of an expense. Members are barred from playing on a grass green in shoes with heels (or in football boots, which would give you better 'grip' on the grass when driving) because it will damage the grass, so it seems reasonable to bar Members who drop their bowls. (Of course using a bowling arm would overcome this).

. Initial cost. Although this can be overcome to a certain extent with grant funding avenues though the Federal, State and Local Governments.
Going on memory of five or six years back, the estimated cost of grass greens for the Club I was with was pretty close to $25,000 per green (wages, sand, fertiliser, poison, equipment expenses and depreciation, et all.). Assuming installation of a synthetic green costs $150,000 all-up (then less any grant funding assistance obtained), it would 'pay' for itself in six-seven years (about the warranteed life of the carpet). A new carpet then laid on the 20-year warranteed base will cost you maybe $60,000-100,000.

Despite these disadvantages, a synthetic green does have the advantage of being able to be played on 24/7, every day of the year (no renovation time off, no winter recovery, no watering days).
And it runs at darn near the same speed morning non and night - good for early starts, and makes night bowls almost a pleasure.

Like 'most' bowlers, I would say that I prefer to play on a good grass green. But realistically, there are not too many of them around. For example, last season I would say that five, maybe six, of the greens I played on in Saturday and mid-week Pennants were really ggod. (I'm not having a go at greenkeepers - I respect their expertise and dedication to their job. But they have many factors working against them - the weather, the water (quantity and quality), time, green location, etc., etc.).

But, I would prefer to play on a 'good' (read as 'true') synthetic than on an 'ordinary' grass green

Glory glory
03-05-2009, 07:44 PM
There a quite a few synthetic greens in WA now, with the woven carpet (TigerTurf) type appearing to the the favoured type now.

I personally don't mind it as a playing surface, and favour it over the sand-filled synthetic.

But - it is not without its disadvantages.

. One of its major disadvantages is how hot it can get. In Perth, where most of the Pennant season is conducted in afternoon temperatures of 35 - 40 + degrees centigrade, carpet becomes extraordinarily hot - much more so than even the sand-filled synthetic (which is watered pre-game to settle the sand). Obviously grass is a much cooler surface to play on. (We don't have a set temperature canellation By-law as in Vic.)

. And for blokes who tend to drag their feet a bit. Be VERY careful about touching the metal scoreboards or posts - the static electricity can be shocking!

. Beware of dumpers! I understand that Committees, and Members who pay the same subscriptions as everyone else, are worried about the (legal) implications of banning certain bowlers from playing on their synthetic green. But 'dumpers' certainly leave a lasting impression on the green and especially the base material which can then only be repaired by lifting up the carpet and underfelt and re-levelling the base - at a hell of an expense. Members are barred from playing on a grass green in shoes with heels (or in football boots, which would give you better 'grip' on the grass when driving) because it will damage the grass, so it seems reasonable to bar Members who drop their bowls. (Of course using a bowling arm would overcome this).

. Initial cost. Although this can be overcome to a certain extent with grant funding avenues though the Federal, State and Local Governments.
Going on memory of five or six years back, the estimated cost of grass greens for the Club I was with was pretty close to $25,000 per green (wages, sand, fertiliser, poison, equipment expenses and depreciation, et all.). Assuming installation of a synthetic green costs $150,000 all-up (then less any grant funding assistance obtained), it would 'pay' for itself in six-seven years (about the warranteed life of the carpet). A new carpet then laid on the 20-year warranteed base will cost you maybe $60,000-100,000.

Despite these disadvantages, a synthetic green does have the advantage of being able to be played on 24/7, every day of the year (no renovation time off, no winter recovery, no watering days).
And it runs at darn near the same speed morning non and night - good for early starts, and makes night bowls almost a pleasure.

Like 'most' bowlers, I would say that I prefer to play on a good grass green. But realistically, there are not too many of them around. For example, last season I would say that five, maybe six, of the greens I played on in Saturday and mid-week Pennants were really ggod. (I'm not having a go at greenkeepers - I respect their expertise and dedication to their job. But they have many factors working against them - the weather, the water (quantity and quality), time, green location, etc., etc.).

But, I would prefer to play on a 'good' (read as 'true') synthetic than on an 'ordinary' grass green

20 years. be interesting for ya to be able to come back in about 20 years and tell us if ya got that long on it for starters

with the weather changing and storms being more the norm now adays, which give us flash flooding. be interesting if those clubs that lost their carpets in the storms can say the same thing. wonder how long it was before they were back playing on them

dunny
07-05-2009, 06:48 AM
We have around 90K plus another 60 to 80K available in grants and such but we have 2 greens at 37x40 but the centre can be ripped out to give us about 37x85. Our greens now are knackered and we either have to bite the bullet now as we have suffered a bit in feedback after having some issues during the second half of the year. I am convinced that we need something people will want to come to our club for and it will start with the greens. The carpet seems the go but I have just read the VGA report done a few years ago for the government and the costing in near terms is carpet well ahead to start but over a 25 year period tif comes out around 70K better off and at the same time we have good weather up here near the border and would expect any carpet would have to run between 15 and 16 seconds and also able to support night bowls as we have lights. Then of course you have the increasing greenkeeping cost for labour which I guess isn't going to get any cheaper and to support 2 new tif greens we need somewhat more on the spot greenkeeping than has been used particularly in the last 12 months so that does have a huge bearing on the direction we need to go.i have been away for a bit and just came back and just thought i would add to this. why not just do 1 green with the carpet and then give the wagga a good renovation. the risk of making 1 huge green 37x85 carpet to me is too high, wear and tear would be mainly around the club and when its time to replace it, in theory where could still be 4 exclellent rinks left to play on, also if something did happen to it then it would be 1 huge cost to replace it. wagga couch is a very hardy grass and plays very well if looked after, at our club (also on the murray) we have 1 and it was left unmaintained(not cut,rolled,watered,fungicided,or fertilised) for over 5 years, the club decided this year to get it going again and it came back fine and now is starting to run very well and will cop a hiding over the winter months. i do have experience in looking after this type of green and there are not many left now so it would be a shame to see another go. if u would like some additional info on the wagga pls pm me as i am only too happy to help out.also as far as the synthetics go just dont contact the clubs who have them, try contacting a nearby club which has grass and ask for thier opinion as it will be the most unbiassed, a club who has installed a synthetic which has not lived up to expactation will not readily admit to it but a nearby club will tell the truth.

dunny
07-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Weve had a carpet green in since Feb 07, and have had nothing but trouble. Ours was through a co called Bowls Construction Australia, based in Armidale NSW. Theyve been back twice to fix it, first time to redo the base, and the second time the hooks (nails) holding the green down let go. Theyre du back again because the base isnt right, & theyve now admitted they didnt use enough bonding agent. The mats two years old and the bowls are picking up fine dust of green pile.I hope to be reporting positively onced the co has redone the green.

Aside from the above the positive is that you can bowl all year round. The disadvantages are, beside the above, that they are 20 degrees hotter than the grass and the get dirty easy (bird shit & dust). The dust can be vacuumed, but the birshit needs to be shampooed out.

This is a carpet green & needs no water, except for cleaning. They certainly have a part to play in the game, but in my opinion, only as a last resort.this sounds very similar to one carpet i played on, the bowls consantly picked up this fine green crap on them and i dunno how healthy it is for you but i know i washed my hands after playing, also noticed that the bowls were "bouncing " down the green once delivered. i had never really seen this before but had heard of it, the bowls 3 to 4 m from delivery jumped anything from 8mm to 15mm off the green depending on the weight of delivery. not very nice to play on at all.

Scottie
07-05-2009, 11:18 PM
... this sounds very similar to one carpet i played on, the bowls consantly picked up this fine green crap on them and i dunno how healthy it is for you but i know i washed my hands after playing, also noticed that the bowls were "bouncing " down the green once delivered. i had never really seen this before but had heard of it, the bowls 3 to 4 m from delivery jumped anything from 8mm to 15mm off the green depending on the weight of delivery. not very nice to play on at all.

"consantly picked up this fine green crap on them and i dunno how healthy it is for you"

You're right. But it is probably no more dangerous to your health than asbestos dust.
(And probably less dangerous to your health than the fertilisers and poisons used on grass surfaces.)

Surely you wash your hands after bowling (on any surface), as a matter of course, before picking up your sardie and beer at afternoon tea?

"the bowls 3 to 4 m from delivery jumped anything from 8mm to 15mm off the green depending on the weight of delivery"

Sounds exactly like one of the grass greens I played on during midweek Pennants (sorry - should that be 'Pennant'?). Migfht have been good for bocce, but it made it pretty hard to get two bowls along the same line.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

Dealy
08-05-2009, 04:11 PM
Sounds exactly like one of the grass greens I played on during midweek Pennants (sorry - should that be 'Pennant'?). Migfht have been good for bocce, but it made it pretty hard to get two bowls along the same line.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

You are correct it should be "Pennant" :twisted:

DWilksy
08-05-2009, 08:12 PM
Sounds exactly like one of the grass greens I played on during midweek Pennants (sorry - should that be 'Pennant'?). Migfht have been good for bocce, but it made it pretty hard to get two bowls along the same line.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

You are correct it should be "Pennant" :twisted:
:smile: :smile: :smile: :sad: :sad: :sad:

The Edge
09-05-2009, 07:07 AM
Sounds exactly like one of the grass greens I played on during midweek Pennants (sorry - should that be 'Pennant'?). Migfht have been good for bocce, but it made it pretty hard to get two bowls along the same line.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

You are correct it should be "Pennant" :twisted:

:cry: Spare me.... Is there no escape? :lol:

pjsomers
09-05-2009, 08:12 AM
I can see DEALY somehow getting this into every thread on this site.

Go Dealy!!! :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: